Wow, my apologies for that post. Looks like crap. Forgot to set my text editor to 80 columns, and the wrap looks like it happened at column 108 or something. Ooops!

Logic44 wrote to All <=-

Thread for cheap compact handguns like the Raven 25.

The Raven 25 is a low cost, cast ZAMAK .25 ACP pocket pistol, possibly a Browning 1905 clone.

It has a capacity of 6+1, and has a 2 inch fixed barrel.

It uses a simple single action striker-fired design, the gun must be cycled to prime it.

I have to admit to a fondness for mouseguns in general. In terms of "Saturday Night Specials" I've got a Sundance A25 and a slightly higher tier Phoenix HP25A. Also have a pair of NAA .22 WMR revolvers, a Standard Manufacturing "Switch-Gun" in .22 WMR, a Baretta 950BS in .22 short. I've also got a VERY nice Colt 1908 "vest-pocket" pistol in .25 ACP. There's also an interesting EIG model E-16 4-barreled pistol in the safe.

I'd have to say that my Sundance A25 and your Raven 25 are probably a LOT closer in design to anything Browning might have produced. In fact, if I were to consider anything a clone of that 1905 Browning it would be my Colt 1908.

An AI comparison of the Raven and the 1905 - which DOES appear to be highly accurate:

The Browning 1905 (FN Model 1905) and the Raven .25 are both .25 ACP "mouse guns" designed for deep concealment. The Browning is a premium, historically significant John Moses Browning design, whereas the Raven is a mass-produced, inexpensive Saturday Night Special.Key Comparison

Feature Browning Model 1905 / Baby Browning Raven MP-25

Origin/Era Designed in 1905, manufactured by Produced from the 1970s to the 1990s
FN and Colt (as the 1908 Vest Pocket). by Raven Arms.

Build Quality High. Precision-machined steel and Low. Zinc alloy castings (often
excellent fit and finish. referred to as a "Saturday Night
Special").

Action Striker-fired, single-action, Striker-fired, singleaction,
blowback-operated. blowback-operated.

Safety Features Includes a manual safety and a Features a simple thumb safety;
distinct grip safety . lacks a grip safety.

Reliability Generally excellent and highly Mixed; frequently suffers from
reliable. feedingissues and part breakage.

Collectibility High. Highly sought after by military Low. Valued mostly as an inexpensive
and firearms historians. plinker or novelty

The Caliber: .25 ACPBoth pistols are chambered in .25 ACP, a cartridge designed by John Browning in 1905. He created it to serve as a reliable, centerfire alternative to the .22 Long Rifle (which suffered from poor reliability in semi-automatic actions at the time). The .25 ACP is extremely manageable to shoot, but it is considered quite weak for modern personal defense, producing low velocity and limited penetration.

The Bottom Line

If you want a piece of history: The Browning is the way to go. It is a masterpiece of early 20th-century gunsmithing, features exceptional craftsmanship, and holds legitimate historical value.

If you want a cheap shooter/beater: The Raven may appeal as a budget-friendly range toy. However, due to its cast-zinc components, it is not recommended for daily carry or serious use.

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Re: Re: Ring of Fire/Saturday Nig
By: Weatherman to Weatherman on Mon May 18 2026 09:00:17

If you want a cheap shooter/beater: The Raven may appeal as a budget-friendly range toy. However, due to its cast-zinc components, it is not recommended for daily carry or serious use.

I firmly disagree. I think it's perfect as a budget small wildlife/stray animal defense weapon. (See "Velo-dog gun")
***************************************
Logic44, Sysop of LNRC Indiana Boards

I ride SOLO.

Weather in Indiana: SUCKS
***************************************

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Logic44 wrote to Weatherman <=-

Re: Re: Ring of Fire/Saturday Nig
By: Weatherman to Weatherman on Mon May 18 2026 09:00:17

If you want a cheap shooter/beater: The Raven may appeal as a budget-friendly range toy. However, due to its cast-zinc components, it is not recommended for daily carry or serious use.

I firmly disagree. I think it's perfect as a budget small
wildlife/stray animal defense weapon. (See "Velo-dog gun")

You may not think that when it blows up in your hand.

I mean, a Yugo car will get you down to the store (maybe), but... why?




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Re: Re: Ring of Fire/Saturday Nig
By: Gamgee to Logic44 on Tue May 19 2026 20:28:15

You may not think that when it blows up in your hand.

I mean, a Yugo car will get you down to the store (maybe), but... why?

I feel like it's more reliable than most are trying to portray it as, 100+ rounds and every malfunction so far has been operator error. Keep it clean and lubricated and it works fine. The only con I've run into is the short effective range of it.
***************************************
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I ride SOLO.

Weather in Indiana: SUCKS
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Re: Re: Ring of Fire/Saturday Nig
By: Logic44 to Gamgee on Wed May 20 2026 05:23:21

I feel like it's more reliable than most are trying to portray it as, 100+ rounds and every malfunction so far has been operator error. Keep it clean and lubricated and it works fine. The only con I've run into is the short effective range of it.

Not to mention the fact that it's probably had like 200 to 400 rounds go through it before I got my hands on it... (At LEAST)
***************************************
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Weather in Indiana: SUCKS
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Logic44 wrote to Gamgee <=-

Re: Re: Ring of Fire/Saturday Nig
By: Gamgee to Logic44 on Tue May 19 2026 20:28:15

You may not think that when it blows up in your hand.

I mean, a Yugo car will get you down to the store (maybe), but... why?

I feel like it's more reliable than most are trying to portray it as,
100+ rounds and every malfunction so far has been operator error.

100 rounds means it isn't even broken in yet. Certainly doesn't "prove" anything. What kind of malfunctions are due to "operator error"?

Keep it clean and lubricated and it works fine.

That's true for any firearm.

The only con I've run into is the short effective range of it.

Well, it's a micro-gun in a micro-caliber...

I ride SOLO.

What does that mean?



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Re: Re: Ring of Fire/Saturday Nig
By: Gamgee to Logic44 on Wed May 20 2026 08:42:28

100 rounds means it isn't even broken in yet. Certainly doesn't "prove" anything. What kind of malfunctions are due to "operator error"?

I think the near 300 rounds before I got it would be pretty significant.
Also, for "operator error", I racked it too slow and the round fell out of place before it could chamber, so when I let go it tried to chamber 2 of them...

That's true for any firearm.

Well, I intend to clean it after every shooting day, so I shouldn't have many issues.

Well, it's a micro-gun in a micro-caliber...

I wasn't expecting anything crazy, it only has a 2.5 inch barrel, and .25 uses a 1 in 16 twist, barely 1/8 of a rotation.

What does that mean?

Just a pun, I thought the avi would be enough to communicate that... ***************************************
Logic44, Sysop of LNRC Indiana Boards

I ride SOLO.

Weather in Indiana: SUCKS
***************************************

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Logic44 wrote to Gamgee <=-

Re: Re: Ring of Fire/Saturday Nig
By: Gamgee to Logic44 on Wed May 20 2026 08:42:28

Well, it's a micro-gun in a micro-caliber...

I wasn't expecting anything crazy, it only has a 2.5 inch barrel, and
.25 uses a 1 in 16 twist, barely 1/8 of a rotation.

Well, just to keep things accurate (no pun intended)... The .25
*caliber* doesn't use a 1 in 16 twist. That particular pistol may do
so, but it's independent of the caliber. Other .25 pistols can/do have different twist rates.

I ride SOLO.

What does that mean?

Just a pun, I thought the avi would be enough to communicate that...

The avi? What avi?



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Re: Re: Ring of Fire/Saturday Nig
By: Gamgee to Logic44 on Thu May 21 2026 08:11:51

Well, just to keep things accurate (no pun intended)... The .25
*caliber* doesn't use a 1 in 16 twist. That particular pistol may do
so, but it's independent of the caliber. Other .25 pistols can/do have different twist rates.

So is the twist rate listed on Wikipedia the just the optimal twist rate, or the most common?

The avi? What avi?

Oh shit, you must have that feature turned off, huh?

It's the default Han Solo avatar....
***************************************
Logic44, Sysop of LNRC Indiana Boards

I ride SOLO.

Weather in Indiana: SUCKS
***************************************

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Logic44 wrote to Gamgee <=-

Re: Re: Ring of Fire/Saturday Nig
By: Gamgee to Logic44 on Thu May 21 2026 08:11:51

Well, just to keep things accurate (no pun intended)... The .25
*caliber* doesn't use a 1 in 16 twist. That particular pistol may do
so, but it's independent of the caliber. Other .25 pistols can/do have different twist rates.

So is the twist rate listed on Wikipedia the just the optimal twist
rate, or the most common?

That question can't be answered, as there are too many unknown
variables. Optimal twist rate is a combination of several factors,
including bullet weight, bullet velocity, and barrel length. I have no
idea what is optimal for a .25 micro pistol.

Honestly I can't even see why anyone would want such a thing. It's
about the same as a .22LR and that isn't even in the discussion when it
comes to self-defense. Perhaps only that "it's better than nothing".

The avi? What avi?

Oh shit, you must have that feature turned off, huh?

What feature? You have a habit of talking about things that nobody else would/could know what you mean...

I'm using an Offline Mail Reader, which may have some bearing on what
you're talking about. <SHRUG>

It's the default Han Solo avatar....

If you say so.


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Re: Re: Ring of Fire/Saturday Nig
By: Gamgee to Logic44 on Fri May 22 2026 17:19:48

I'm using an Offline Mail Reader, which may have some bearing on what
you're talking about. <SHRUG>

Yep, that's it.

On the actual Synchronet terminal view (Telnet) there's usually an icon next to the post info unless you turn it off in the settings. It doesn't show up in QWK packets, I'm pretty sure it's just straight up incompatible with the format.
***************************************
Logic44, Sysop of LNRC Indiana Boards

I ride SOLO.

Weather in Indiana: SUCKS
***************************************

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Logic44 wrote to Weatherman <=-

Re: Re: Ring of Fire/Saturday Nig
By: Weatherman to Weatherman on Mon May 18 2026 09:00:17

If you want a cheap shooter/beater: The Raven may appeal as a budget-friendly range toy. However, due to its cast-zinc components, it is not recommended for daily carry or serious use.

I firmly disagree. I think it's perfect as a budget small
wildlife/stray animal defense weapon. (See "Velo-dog gun") ***************************************

You're certainly entitled to your opinion, but for budget small wildlife/stray animal defense, in my mind you can't beat the Heritage Arms product line. I've picked up brand new Barkeep models for $99 at the store, and the Rough Rider generally retails for about $129. Add $30 and you have a .22 WMR cylinder, which gaurantees a hell of a lot more punch than the .25 ACP can provide.

For that matter, the Ruger Super Wrangler can be had for less than $300. This comes with a .22 LR and .22 WMR cylinder so you can switch between the two rounds.

I'm not bad-mouthing the Raven, as mentioned earlier, I have a Sundance and a Phoenix, both in .25 ACP and find them to be fun little plinkers. The Phoenix is definitely the better of the two. The Sundance, being closer to the Raven in design just has terrible sights. It's the curse of the beast. Hell, the sights on my Colt 1908 aren't any better! I'm just saying that for budget snake/rat guns, there are better choices and at not a much higher price than what Ring of Fire guns are going for right now.



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Gamgee wrote to Logic44 <=-

Logic44 wrote to Weatherman <=-

Re: Re: Ring of Fire/Saturday Nig
By: Weatherman to Weatherman on Mon May 18 2026 09:00:17

If you want a cheap shooter/beater: The Raven may appeal as a budget-friendly range toy. However, due to its cast-zinc components, it is not recommended for daily carry or serious use.

I firmly disagree. I think it's perfect as a budget small
wildlife/stray animal defense weapon. (See "Velo-dog gun")

You may not think that when it blows up in your hand.

I mean, a Yugo car will get you down to the store (maybe), but... why?

Because it's what you can afford?

I try not to be a gun snob. I don't judge someone else's choice of firearms by my standards. If someone can't afford anything better than a Hi-Point for home defense then I commend them for at least opting to use SOMETHING rather than to become a victim.

Also, to remember, these Ring of Fire mouse guns were intended to be pocket pistols for personal defense use at a time when extended range time spent training was an exception rather than the standard. I don't carry any of my .25s, not even the 1908 (mainly because the damned thing is so small and my hands so large that I literally can't close the grip safety and pull the trigger in a high-stress situation) but one might say that the Grendel P11 I carry for backup is barely better.



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Gamgee wrote to Logic44 <=-

Logic44 wrote to Gamgee <=-

Well, just to keep things accurate (no pun intended)... The .25
*caliber* doesn't use a 1 in 16 twist. That particular pistol may do
so, but it's independent of the caliber. Other .25 pistols can/do have different twist rates.

So is the twist rate listed on Wikipedia the just the optimal twist
rate, or the most common?

That question can't be answered, as there are too many unknown
variables. Optimal twist rate is a combination of several factors, including bullet weight, bullet velocity, and barrel length. I have no idea what is optimal for a .25 micro pistol.

Honestly I can't even see why anyone would want such a thing. It's
about the same as a .22LR and that isn't even in the discussion when it comes to self-defense. Perhaps only that "it's better than nothing".

There are those who are recoil sensitive and for whom a smaller caliber is a better choice. Being simple blow-back actions they also generally require less training and/or experience to operate in a stressful situation. There are plenty of reasons beyond "better than nothing" for choosing a mouse gun caliber for personal defense.

Just because you can't see why anyone would choose a mouse gun for their defense doesn't mean that there aren't valid reasons why someone else WOULD.



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Weatherman wrote to Gamgee <=-

Gamgee wrote to Logic44 <=-

Logic44 wrote to Weatherman <=-

Re: Re: Ring of Fire/Saturday Nig
By: Weatherman to Weatherman on Mon May 18 2026 09:00:17

If you want a cheap shooter/beater: The Raven may appeal as a budget-friendly range toy. However, due to its cast-zinc components, it is not recommended for daily carry or serious use.

I firmly disagree. I think it's perfect as a budget small
wildlife/stray animal defense weapon. (See "Velo-dog gun")

You may not think that when it blows up in your hand.
I mean, a Yugo car will get you down to the store (maybe), but... why?

Because it's what you can afford?

Well, maybe.

I try not to be a gun snob. I don't judge someone else's choice of firearms by my standards. If someone can't afford anything better than
a Hi-Point for home defense then I commend them for at least opting to
use SOMETHING rather than to become a victim.

True enough, and my intent was not to come across as a gun snob. Just
an actual real-world question.

Also, to remember, these Ring of Fire mouse guns were intended to be pocket pistols for personal defense use at a time when extended range
time spent training was an exception rather than the standard. I don't

Well, those times are now over. Hard to justify using something with so
many limitations, at least for me.

carry any of my .25s, not even the 1908 (mainly because the damned
thing is so small and my hands so large that I literally can't close
the grip safety and pull the trigger in a high-stress situation) but
one might say that the Grendel P11 I carry for backup is barely better.

Yet more reasons not to use such a "mouse gun".



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Weatherman wrote to Gamgee <=-

Gamgee wrote to Logic44 <=-

Logic44 wrote to Gamgee <=-

Well, just to keep things accurate (no pun intended)... The .25
*caliber* doesn't use a 1 in 16 twist. That particular pistol may do
so, but it's independent of the caliber. Other .25 pistols can/do have different twist rates.

So is the twist rate listed on Wikipedia the just the optimal twist
rate, or the most common?

That question can't be answered, as there are too many unknown
variables. Optimal twist rate is a combination of several factors, including bullet weight, bullet velocity, and barrel length. I have no idea what is optimal for a .25 micro pistol.

Honestly I can't even see why anyone would want such a thing. It's
about the same as a .22LR and that isn't even in the discussion when it comes to self-defense. Perhaps only that "it's better than nothing".

There are those who are recoil sensitive and for whom a smaller caliber
is a better choice. Being simple blow-back actions they also generally require less training and/or experience to operate in a stressful situation. There are plenty of reasons beyond "better than nothing"
for choosing a mouse gun caliber for personal defense.

We'll have to just disagree on that I guess. The only reason I can
think of is wanting to carry while wearing a Speedo at the beach. ;-)

Just because you can't see why anyone would choose a mouse gun for
their defense doesn't mean that there aren't valid reasons why someone else WOULD.

That "logic" is quite susceptible to debate.



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